Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

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Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:17 pm

Aside from going to college or buying a book, why should an artist ever pay for their education in art?

Seems like a big waste of money just to take a small little shortcut to something you could learn on your own. There are so many courses on learning to draw. Everywhere I go, there's someone trying to make money off teaching you a thing or two. Courses are dumb, and premium content is dumb, especially over trivial knowledge that you can figure out yourself, over a bit of pondering or experimentation, or through better googling.

I don't feel like anyone can really own knowledge, so I feel it's pretty wrong to be selling it. What are your thoughts? It pisses me off that learning to draw is an expensive endeavor when it shouldn't cost anything in the first place. This just holds potential back for the sake of making a side job.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby del » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:00 pm

I think people are trying to make money out of everything. For some tutors it's probably a waste of time, if they would find themself doing something they won't get payed for.
Luckily there are some people who think that they're learning for themself by teaching others and that's all they need in return.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Enydimon » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:08 pm

My stance is that I don't mind. Teaching is a skill in and of itself and if someone's a great teacher and wants to charge people then I think that's cool. There's crappy art colleges, crappy art books and crappy free education and you can't really avoid the people who are bad at it and are just looking to cash in. That's unfortunately something that shows up in any area of discipline.

When Dave Rapoza started The Crimson Daggers his opinion at the time was that education should be free. In a recent blog post he revealed that it was partly because he didn't feel he had anything worth paying for at the time but also said he decided that you can't offer education of great quality without some sort of monetary support and I would agree with that.

And I think forums where people come together to give each other free advice and resources are great. I think permanoobs is great! However I doubt that most people have the time and can afford to sit around all day critiquing people. Usually people are in and out when they leave critiques because they have other obligations to attend to on top of their own art. And I'm always impressed when someone offers an abundance of free information out for everyone but I also wouldn't hold it against them if they started charging for it either.

Some people just want to teach for a living and some people want to work their industry job as well as teach without having to lose time and money over it. I personally think that's fair. It also allows these people to work in an environment where their idea of education and what they think is best in regard to that can roam free without having to worry about whether or not it's up to some arbitrary standard created by some institution.

And I can understand why people want to pay for these tutorials even if they're just the small ones. Sometimes people want to express gratitude to an artist they admire and a small fee is worth it to them. Maybe this person's method of teaching resonates with them so much that it's worth it.

I'm all for art education that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I also think that stuff like this can evolve into that affordable option for people and already has begun to. Yesterday I stumbled upon an online art academy that had teachers like Glenn Vilppu and Steve Huston and their yearly rate for all the courses was 228$. Now I've never tried this academy, but that's incredible. There are workshops that cost that much or more.

I'd rather that people have options when it comes to learning and I think it's reasonable that people be compensated if they think it calls for it.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby sachsapne » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:29 am

Yeah I agree, these art camps and stuff do seem a bit weird to me, but then again mullin`s gnomon videos have been most helpful to me. I think it depends on person to person, either way its hard work and figuring stuff out.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby MateusRoberts » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:33 am

Like you said, it's a shortcut, people buy tutorials to learn faster. What's the problem with that?
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:42 am

It basically gives off the impression to new artists: If you don't pay for art tutorials and courses, you can't get good at art.

I'm a really poor artist. I've bought a few books on things I felt I couldn't learn by myself, like anatomy. I'm just as motivated as any other kid with deep pockets. If I was going to share my knowledge, I'd want to take into consideration the artists that can't pay the price. Making a side business out of teaching people things seems really underhanded to me. It's not really in the spirit of helpfulness, it's still quite self-centered and there's less integrity in that.

I understand that making these in-depth tutorials and courses is time-consuming on the parts of particularly busy folks, but that's no excuse to charge for them. If you're really passionate about teaching people and sharing your knowledge to help people out for the sake of helping them out, you shouldn't require money as motivation to take the time off to do so.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby MateusRoberts » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:07 am

Well, I disagree. If they spent their valuable time to paint and talk about stuff they learned (usually after many years of practice) they have all the right to charge for it. And I don't know about "If you don't pay for art tutorials and courses, you can't get good at art." Every artist ever says that with practice everyone can get as good as them.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Enydimon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:16 am

I don't think offering paid tutorials and courses gives anyone the impression of anything other than that they can be paid for. If someone thought tutorials and courses were the only way to get better then they already have an abundance of free tutorials and public domain content to work with. If they want something more in depth then they'd have to realize that it requires more resources and time away from work.

And why should it not be an excuse to charge? People still need to eat and bills need to be paid. If they're offering resources like simulated life drawing via video or photo then the photographers and models need to get paid too and people should be compensated for their work. Any tools they use to bring you this information can cost them money as well.

I understand not having a lot of money, believe me I do, however I think things like this offers more job opportunities to us and ways of sustaining ourselves with art and I think that's a good thing. Especially since a lot of this information is given away in affordable ways.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:03 am

For the same reason Wikipedia is free, for the same reason so much of the information on the internet is free.

No professional artist makes their living solely off of online courses or tutorials. Making money off knowledge that should be free, as I said, lacks integrity.
The whole point of "premium" content is trying to convince you that it's something you need so you'll pay money for it. Sure, they have the right to charge for it, in the literal sense. Doesn't mean it's good.

I don't think it's respectable, and I don't think I ever will. I care less that there's possible information that could be helping me improve lots in short amounts of times to a certain extent, and care more about the fact that this kind of mindset is totally acceptable to so many people. So on that note, I guess we should agree to disagree. I really was just curious about other peoples' thoughts, and now I'm getting a bit upset over it, and I don't think that'll be good for anybody here. Mm..
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Kikindaface » Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:03 pm

Well, i don't even find it's shortcuts, sometimes, it's more of a waste of time ! But what pisses me more is that most of those videos are all about brushes, photoshop tricks, layers, blah blah, when it's definately far from being the most important stuff in a design/illustration. Nowadays, it's hard to find a simple video explaining how to understand form, or color, without hearing " use this brush, apply this filter, blah blah " . But for the most part, there isn"t any shortcuts, even if you think art school, or videos are ones, they truly aren't, it only depends on your dedication and willingness to learn that will predict how fast you'll improve, not videos ....
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Luna » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:20 pm

hm... For Silly Me, I just got the very thing to talk about -->

I already paying for my online art course since a month ago, and I really believe I made a Right choose! Because I felt I improved a lot!
-->
Personally I was working really hard, and drawing a lot... but I didn't have Logic and I didn't know how to study, I had no clue, but in my own experience, my online art course changed my logic and lead me to a right direction and I got to know what I should trust hardly and keep going the right path, that's the bit I believe the right thing worth to pay money for also Teacher worked hard, so for me, I think it's really fair for both working hard in that way! ^_^
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Enydimon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:26 pm

Well I can't say that I'm particularly upset at all and I could definitely keep going, but if you want to end the discussion here I'm not going to agitate you further.

Have a nice day and good luck with your art.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:20 pm

Enydimon wrote:Well I can't say that I'm particularly upset at all and I could definitely keep going, but if you want to end the discussion here I'm not going to agitate you further.

Have a nice day and good luck with your art.

Oh no, if you have more thoughts, by all means, feel free to share. I'm interested in discussing this if you are.

I just feel like my persistence and stubbornness rubs people up the wrong way, and I'd like to avoid anything resembling a flame war.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby matthew » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:01 am

Maybe I got it wrong, but what you say seems a bit contradictory to me. On the one hand you state there is not much to gain from those
paid online contents anyway, but on the other hand you seem upset because it isn't available to you for free. There are people behind those
things who have to make a living with what they do. Why shouldn't they be allowed to charge for it, just because their product is knowledge?
Nobody asks a baker to give away his bread for free, right? Free food would be ethically just as desirable as free knowledge.
On top of that, you need to realize that just because something is free for you, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't paid for. Yes, depending on where
you live, university's kinda free, access to state libraries is free, access to art museums is (sometimes) free (or very cheap). You may perceive a lot
of stuff as free, when in fact it isn't free at all. It is paid for with your tax money. Even wikipedia would be impossible to run without donations.
There is free knowledge to be found out there, which is an amazing thing that we should be grateful for, but it is not something we can demand
of anybody.

However, with your first statement I tend to agree. There are so many great free resources in the internet today, that it makes all the paid stuff a
bit redundant, in my opinion. If you dig around there are a lot of amazing tutorials to find. And there are open forums on many art communities,
which gives you the opportunity to get advice and feedback. If you are willing to search, you are most likely going to find what you need.

Apart from some essential books (Loomis, Gurney, Bridgman, Robertson...) I personally didn't buy any resources related to painting or
digital art, yet. (And again... nobody complains that there's a price tag on books, do they?)
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Enydimon » Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:45 pm

Sorry I meant to get back to you sooner but I got busy.

I think Matthew did a pretty good job of saying what I wanted to say. Things like wikipedia and google are free to use but they're not free to run. Even if you're not directly paying for something, the resources needed to run these things still need to be accounted for.

The way I see it is that in a way you are paying for knowledge, but what you're really paying for is someone's teaching style. Everyone learns in different ways and it is not one size fits all.

There are people who are out to sell you tutorials on really basic and trivial things and it's also probably all they know they can teach, however you're wrong about there being no professional artists making the bulk of their income out of online courses. Glenn Vilppu used to be a storyboard artist but now he spends his time teaching and that includes online courses. I'm sure if Bridgman were alive today he would expand his anatomy course to the online world as well.

You mention that college is acceptable to pay for in the first line, or at least it's implied. What makes online courses different?
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby chazillah » Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:19 pm

sorry, but there are too many free resources out there on the web for people to complain that they have to pay for an artist's tutorial or some books. '

not everything can be free in life, and a lot of those industry artists are extremely busy. when they actually find the time to put something together, they definitely deserve some money out of it.

i can't imagine scott robertson putting out the "how to draw" book for free. that would be ludicrous. he spent ten years editing that thing.
or gary meyer's lengthy perspective dvds!

considering the time artists put into some of these paid resources, we should simply be grateful they're willing to even share it!

are there resources that are a waste of money out there? absolutely. there's good fruit, there's bad fruit. but just do your research before you get into it, make sure it's not a rotten apple, and there's your solution.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:46 pm

chazillah wrote:sorry, but there are too many free resources out there on the web for people to complain that they have to pay for an artist's tutorial or some books. '

not everything can be free in life, and a lot of those industry artists are extremely busy. when they actually find the time to put something together, they definitely deserve some money out of it.

i can't imagine scott robertson putting out the "how to draw" book for free. that would be ludicrous. he spent ten years editing that thing.
or gary meyer's lengthy perspective dvds!

considering the time artists put into some of these paid resources, we should simply be grateful they're willing to even share it!

are there resources that are a waste of money out there? absolutely. there's good fruit, there's bad fruit. but just do your research before you get into it, make sure it's not a rotten apple, and there's your solution.

I simply disagree. I don't think putting time into something makes it suddenly "worth" selling.
There is exactly zero reason to charge for something aside from personal gain, and that's really not the reason you should be helping others out for in the first place.

I would almost see the point, but then there are people who do slave away to release content for free. What does that say about everyone else? It kind of highlights the fact that charging for content is merely for personal gain in the end, and I don't see the point.

Books are cheap, you can fit a lot of info in them and I find they're more about exposure than anything. Sticking a "You need this to become a better artist" course on your site with a $200 something price tag is just lame.

In my eyes, I can't see it as anything more than greed for a bit of side cash. And I don't want to give my money to anyone who feels like that, even if I had the money to pay for such premium content in the first place. I'm sure you're bound to disagree, and that's fine. I'm really not trying to convert your opinion so much as make mine more apparent.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby chazillah » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:16 pm

I simply disagree. I don't think putting time into something makes it suddenly "worth" selling.
There is exactly zero reason to charge for something aside from personal gain, and that's really not the reason you should be helping others out for in the first place.

I would almost see the point, but then there are people who do slave away to release content for free. What does that say about everyone else? It kind of highlights the fact that charging for content is merely for personal gain in the end, and I don't see the point.

Books are cheap, you can fit a lot of info in them and I find they're more about exposure than anything. Sticking a "You need this to become a better artist" course on your site with a $200 something price tag is just lame.

In my eyes, I can't see it as anything more than greed for a bit of side cash. And I don't want to give my money to anyone who feels like that, even if I had the money to pay for such premium content in the first place. I'm sure you're bound to disagree, and that's fine. I'm really not trying to convert your opinion so much as make mine more apparent.


yes but when you have a family to feed, a hectic lifestyle, and bills to pay, this perspective tends to change quite quickly.
i'm a music teacher---and as much as i would love to, there's no way i'm sitting down with kids to share my 15+ years of knowledge for free. i can't afford it. and i invested my own time, money, and effort into learning this skill, and now i have new skills (art) that i want to pursue. i would gain nothing. the same goes for these artists.

so yea, it would be great if putting time and effort into creating content wasn't costly. it would be great if all knowledge was free--- er well actually, it is for the most part, we are extremely fortunate in this day and age.

but time is expensive, especially when a lot of these industry artists are working 10+ hour days and trying to balance the rest of their life with it. so when someone like scott robertson is putting ten years of effort into creating an awesome book, i'm more than willing to respect his price.

imo, instead of being upset about greed and all this stuff that we know exists in the world, just do your research and don't get sucked into the 'greedy' tutorials that teach you nothing. it's as simple as that

also yes, kudos to the people who can afford to put out free content. but they're *usually* getting something out of it too (crimson daggers, level up, even feng zhu is technically promoting his school / himself when he puts out free content). or, it's just not too ridiculously time consuming to put content out and they do it out of goodwill. : )
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:42 pm

chazillah wrote:yes but when you have a family to feed, a hectic lifestyle, and bills to pay, this perspective tends to change quite quickly.
i'm a music teacher---and as much as i would love to, there's no way i'm sitting down with kids to share my 15+ years of knowledge for free. i can't afford it. and i invested my own time, money, and effort into learning this skill, and now i have new skills (art) that i want to pursue. i would gain nothing. the same goes for these artists.

Mentoring is different. If you have 15+ years of specialized knowledge and your job description is to share that knowledge, and you've invested in learning it to begin with, even though I don't necessarily like it, I totally understand. I don't like the idea of going to college to learn how to draw or paint, or compose music when you can teach yourself all that you need to with some time and effort. But it's a primary business, and it is what it is.

so yea, it would be great if putting time and effort into creating content wasn't costly. it would be great if all knowledge was free--- er well actually, it is for the most part, we are extremely fortunate in this day and age.
Most of all my knowledge was gained from books I read, articles and threads I read on the internet or videos I've watched. I'd like to think I have some fairly decent info for an artist. I feel I have all I need to get where I want to be, and I certainly have enough knowledge to get someone's feet off the ground. I've invested my whole life into learning to draw and paint, for the most part. If I'd spent money left and right on books and courses and gone to college, why then, would the consideration of charging for my knowledge still never cross my mind? It's just info. It's helpful. Sometimes moreso than other times. It's because people think they need it that they'll hand you money for it, thinking they got a good deal and a headstart on the rest of the world.

but time is expensive, especially when a lot of these industry artists are working 10+ hour days and trying to balance the rest of their life with it. so when someone like scott robertson is putting ten years of effort into creating an awesome book, i'm more than willing to respect his price.

Dunno who Scott Robertson is or anything about his book, but the price of it should only go up proportionate to the quality guidelines of any piece of instructional literature it meets, and not the amount of effort or time he put into it. If you like him personally, and you want to support him, that's different. But not everyone does, and his prices certainly shouldn't assume you do by default.

imo, instead of being upset about greed and all this stuff that we know exists in the world, just do your research and don't get sucked into the 'greedy' tutorials that teach you nothing. it's as simple as that
It's not that simple. In the end, if you're broke like me, you're shit out of luck. I don't particularly mind because I'm confident that I can find the way by continuously practicing. But not everyone is like me. And a paywall for something you do out of passion does indeed upset me, especially coming from people who should be just as passionate as you about their path in life.

also yes, kudos to the people who can afford to put out free content. but they're *usually* getting something out of it too (crimson daggers, level up, even feng zhu is technically promoting his school / himself when he puts out free content). or, it's just not too ridiculously time consuming to put content out and they do it out of goodwill. : )
What is there to afford? If you don't put money into displaying such information, what money are you losing? If you're a painter, you make your money by selling paintings or doing commissions. It doesn't always pay well, but that's because the world's a tough place, go figure. If you're a teacher, you make your money by teaching. I think it takes an exceptional teacher to make it worth learning anything in a classroom fashion, otherwise it's wasted time and money.

Like I said earlier, I have a lifetime of knowledge which could be worth a fair amount of money if I bundled it all up into a course.
I think it's greed not so much because we are bad people. I think it's because people won't give out content for free if they could make money off of it.

Think about it. How many people would choose not to sell something they could make some really good money off of just because they can? Preposterous, right? Anyways, I hope you're not offended or irritated by my constant disagreeing. It's nothing personal, I just have very strong feelings on the matter, as you can tell. I've quite enjoyed the exchange so far, for what it's worth. I hope you have, too.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby matthew » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:47 am

If it were just about unqualified people, who put trash tutorials on the internet and try to charge money for it,
I would agree with you. That's annoying, but I don't think it's worth getting upset about. Just notice it an brush it
aside. The world is full of presumptuous people. Our society promotes that. If you devote too much of your attention
to those people you won't be a very happy person. :D
And it's not just the art world. It doesn't matter what product you are trying to purchase, there will most likely be
some guy out there who's trying to sell a similar-but-sh*t-quality equivalent. As chazillah said, that requires some
filtering. That's just how the market works. But that isn't bad. Competition is a good thing.

However, you seem to dislike the general idea behind paid education. And I think that's just not "right". By the
same right you could criticize school teachers. They share knowledge. Why do they get a salary? Just because they
are employed by the state and their job description says "teacher" on paper, doesn't mean they are any more qualified
at what they're doing than an artist with a decade of experience. To the contrary. There are so many teachers in schools
who are mediocre at their subject and horrible at social interaction.
If we don't accept that knowledge is worth paying for, we're all going to be back in stone age in no time, because teachers
would be left with the choice to either change their career or die of starvation.

Cam wrote:Books are cheap, you can fit a lot of info in them and I find they're more about exposure than anything. Sticking a "You need this to become a better artist" course on your site with a $200 something price tag is just lame.


Maybe. But then again that's apples and oranges. Books can be sold rather cheap, because you can move a very
large volume with little effort. Once you wrote that thing, you can almost sell an unlimited quantity. Selling more
books, doesn't mean more work.
That is not the case with online art courses. A lot of them usually include personal mentoring and feedback, overpaints,
etc. You can only mentor a couple of people at a time.

Cam wrote:I would almost see the point, but then there are people who do slave away to release content for free. What does that say about everyone else? It kind of highlights the fact that charging for content is merely for personal gain in the end, and I don't see the point.


Well yeah. That's the point of every job. ;)
And it's true. There are truly generous people. But that shouldn't be mandatory.

Cam wrote:What is there to afford? If you don't put money into displaying such information, what money are you losing? If you're a painter, you make your money by selling paintings or doing commissions. (...) If you're a teacher, you make your money by teaching.


You are investing (a lot of) time. Time you could spend working on commissions. So yes, they actually are losing money.
And who says you can't be both? There's more than enough people who work multiple jobs. Just because you work as an artist,
doesn't mean you can't also work as a teacher.

Oh, and I want to say one more thing, because I'm getting the impression that we're sliding towards putting "online art courses"
on the same level with "selling worthless stuff that nobody needs". I believe that's essentially wrong. Sure, quality varies, there are
good products, there are bad products. But I am certain there's a lot to gain from many of these courses.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby sachsapne » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:58 am

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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:33 am

matthew wrote:If it were just about unqualified people, who put trash tutorials on the internet and try to charge money for it,
I would agree with you. That's annoying, but I don't think it's worth getting upset about. Just notice it an brush it
aside. The world is full of presumptuous people. Our society promotes that. If you devote too much of your attention
to those people you won't be a very happy person. :D
And it's not just the art world. It doesn't matter what product you are trying to purchase, there will most likely be
some guy out there who's trying to sell a similar-but-sh*t-quality equivalent. As chazillah said, that requires some
filtering. That's just how the market works. But that isn't bad. Competition is a good thing.

However, you seem to dislike the general idea behind paid education. And I think that's just not "right". By the
same right you could criticize school teachers. They share knowledge. Why do they get a salary? Just because they
are employed by the state and their job description says "teacher" on paper, doesn't mean they are any more qualified
at what they're doing than an artist with a decade of experience. To the contrary. There are so many teachers in schools
who are mediocre at their subject and horrible at social interaction.
If we don't accept that knowledge is worth paying for, we're all going to be back in stone age in no time, because teachers
would be left with the choice to either change their career or die of starvation.

Taking things in stride is probably a good protip for life in general, heh.
To be clear, I don't like the idea of making money by selling educational information by any standards. I only accept it in the form of a book because I'm biased and that "feels" traditional and harmless. Not all books, mind you. Like courses, there are good ones and bad ones, I understand. As for teachers, I don't think they're any more qualified than an artist with a decade of experience. I literally believe any form of education should be free to anyone who should ever want it. But admittedly, this has shifted from "Why would you buy educational knowledge" to "Why would you sell educational knowledge". I know it's out there, and I know that my personal wishes will never change the way the world works.

Maybe. But then again that's apples and oranges. Books can be sold rather cheap, because you can move a very
large volume with little effort. Once you wrote that thing, you can almost sell an unlimited quantity. Selling more
books, doesn't mean more work.
That is not the case with online art courses. A lot of them usually include personal mentoring and feedback, overpaints,
etc. You can only mentor a couple of people at a time.

I just don't like online courses. Might as well go to college or buy some books. I think college is a big waste of time and money, though.

Well yeah. That's the point of every job. ;)
And it's true. There are truly generous people. But that shouldn't be mandatory.

Making a job out of educating people is the issue to begin with, in my opinion. Educational knowledge should be free to gain, and free to distribute.

You are investing (a lot of) time. Time you could spend working on commissions. So yes, they actually are losing money.
And who says you can't be both? There's more than enough people who work multiple jobs. Just because you work as an artist,
doesn't mean you can't also work as a teacher.

Taking time off of your job to work on something on the side is a personal decision, so one should be prepared to "lose money" by not actively working, as if anyone could be working 24/7 and thus, no longer losing money. In all seriousness, though: To lose something implies you already have it to begin with. To spend something implies you already have it to begin with. Not investing in something by choice is neither losing nor spending money. What you do with your time is all up to you. Though I do see your point, rest assured.

Oh, and I want to say one more thing, because I'm getting the impression that we're sliding towards putting "online art courses"
on the same level with "selling worthless stuff that nobody needs". I believe that's essentially wrong. Sure, quality varies, there are
good products, there are bad products. But I am certain there's a lot to gain from many of these courses.

I rag on courses because I've never heard of a free one, so they're basically the primary target of my contention.

I don't like the idea of selling educational information, no matter what the situation or what the status of the person doing it.
There is indeed plenty of free information on the internet. Enough to get you where you need to go. So much so, that I don't even see the point of purchasing that information elsewhere outside of supporting an artist you like. But anyways, thank you for the reply, and leaving me with more food-for-thought.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby chazillah » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:49 am

Mentoring is different. If you have 15+ years of specialized knowledge and your job description is to share that knowledge, and you've invested in learning it to begin with, even though I don't necessarily like it, I totally understand.


It's not that simple. In the end, if you're broke like me, you're shit out of luck.


Most of all my knowledge was gained from books I read, articles and threads I read on the internet or videos I've watched. I'd like to think I have some fairly decent info for an artist. I feel I have all I need to get where I want to be, and I certainly have enough knowledge to get someone's feet off the ground.


If you're a painter, you make your money by selling paintings or doing commissions. It doesn't always pay well, but that's because the world's a tough place, go figure


no offense, but you're contradicting yourself quite a bit here.
and yep, the world is a tough place, that's why people generally get some compensation for sharing their knowledge and skillset. a completely free model doesn't work in a world where we need money to eat and gross amounts of time to invest into our skills to make that money.

i understand the frustration, but you'll be just fine. like you said, you have all that you need to get to where you want to be. so why be upset? it's a waste to be angry at experienced artists who are selling their knowledge.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:29 pm

chazillah wrote:
Mentoring is different. If you have 15+ years of specialized knowledge and your job description is to share that knowledge, and you've invested in learning it to begin with, even though I don't necessarily like it, I totally understand.


It's not that simple. In the end, if you're broke like me, you're shit out of luck.


Most of all my knowledge was gained from books I read, articles and threads I read on the internet or videos I've watched. I'd like to think I have some fairly decent info for an artist. I feel I have all I need to get where I want to be, and I certainly have enough knowledge to get someone's feet off the ground.


If you're a painter, you make your money by selling paintings or doing commissions. It doesn't always pay well, but that's because the world's a tough place, go figure


no offense, but you're contradicting yourself quite a bit here.
and yep, the world is a tough place, that's why people generally get some compensation for sharing their knowledge and skillset. a completely free model doesn't work in a world where we need money to eat and gross amounts of time to invest into our skills to make that money.

i understand the frustration, but you'll be just fine. like you said, you have all that you need to get to where you want to be. so why be upset? it's a waste to be angry at experienced artists who are selling their knowledge.

I don't think you get it. It's not that I'm upset that there's information that's not available to me. I'm upset that anybody would want to make money selling educational information. Period.

I know. What do I intend to do about it, right? Nothing, really. However, this thread has a point for discussion, and I'm trying to make it more apparent.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Luna » Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:09 pm

Haha!!! Cam~~
I think everyone are different, and individual people all have different opinion, and when someone want to buy some don't all up to themselves, and the results will certainly not hurt others people (audiences).

Also what I studied before (middle school?...), seems the good topics for discussion are usually related to Groups (many) of people's benefit when one person doing something or not doing will make others' lives Very Different~ But for "paying" or "not paying" seems are the person's own choose, so not really that much to find the way to "Discuss" it, isn't it --> private human right? Because it seems keep talking the people's "Private Life Choose" they might feeling we are talking gossip. #v#~ Like <Gossip Girls>~ :P

(PS: Also actually what chazillah saying Luna Raccoon also thought the similar thing --> For example, if one day, you or me turn to be a Brilliant Genius Artist @v@~ And toooooo busy for work already or Too Poor have no job yet (either way)..... In that moment, Some younger people wanted to learn what spent us years Blood and Sweat and Health to learn, Either time for them or for "us" is not really "Nothing", isn't it!!! In this certain point, "time" can be counted by money for helping "human rules" to make a thing between each others (Teachers & Students). Don't you agree/ ^_^)
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Kikindaface » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:04 am

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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:02 am

People are doing the popcorn memes, what's so interesting about this exchange? It's not like it's a flame war, a-ha.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Enydimon » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:18 am

Lol, I think you might be a little too paranoid about a civil debate turning into a flamewar. I don't think anyone here is taking anything personally and the culture and size of the forum hasn't lead me to believe we have that problem yet. Otherwise, I'm sure we'd have more active moderators.

Debates are just fun to watch or participate in. Although I get the feeling that maybe you weren't intending for this to turn into a debate as much as you were curious about what other people thought and it just evolved into one. I'm not sure what you want exactly out of this discussion because you do seem willing to debate when it calls for it but you've also said you have no intention of converting anyone to your side. I also get the impression that you've made up your mind before the thread started and anything else at this point is just you understanding the opposition and that you don't have much of an interest in changing your mind. I think you might be torturing yourself a bit here, lol.

The only thing I can know for sure is that you wouldn't have made the thread if you thought it was boring to talk about which is all there is to it.
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Cam » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:59 pm

As long as debates are friendly, and there are no hard feelings, I really don't mind having them. It's conversation, and I'm always up for conversation.

Pretty much everything you said is correct, a-ha~
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Re: Why would you ever pay for tutorials?

Postby Jellydong » Sun Nov 02, 2014 7:20 am

Great debate guys ^^ Hey Cam what makes books/college different from courses for you? Just curious really. You probably said it somewhere so you could evn just pull the quote sorry im too lazy to try and reread it all.. my mini opinion is that many people can,t afford college and that maybes how the "mini" courses became popular and then since there was a want for it.......
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